Mel talks to Mic about life as a creative person
Monica Inestroza-Curtis returns to interview Melissa Halpin about where The Kindling Project started for her and what it was like growing up as a young creative mind.
Monica is a dear friend and blogger who is now an equal owner/founder of The Kindling Project leadership. Her words and interviewing ability are captivating, and she really knows how to ask thoughtful questions. She is always asking questions, online and in real life, her enthusiasm and curiosity about life are two of her most enduring traits!
Find more of Monica here:
You can talk to Melissa and Monica over in our Facebook group for women looking for that extra kindling to start their next big fire! https://www.facebook.com/groups/4725502587549096
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Melissa: Hi, and welcome to the Kindling Project Podcast! This show is where we share stories from inspiring women all over, giving us insight into the people and processes that help them bring their kindling projects to fruition. Here and over in our Facebook group, The Kindling Project, Ignite, We are all about creating space to empower and support women with any and all of their individual aspirations. I'm Melissa Artist, entrepreneur and creative director of Memora design agency, and usually I'm joined by my co-host Amy, who's a licensed social worker, therapist and yoga instructor. But we're ending the season with each of us individually being interviewed by our wonderful friend Monica, who is our first guest, and now she's our last. So let me introduce you again to Monica.
Monica: Hi! How are you?
Melissa: It's so good to see you!
Monica: Oh my gosh, Mel, it's amazing to see you and I'm so proud of all the work you've been doing with this Kindling project and the Facebook, uh, social group. It's really been fun to sort of see the evolution from the first recording to, or the first guess I should say to this moment.
Melissa: I know! Isn't it hard to believe that was just six, seven months ago?
Monica: It is hard to believe, and I love hearing your stories and listening in. Hearing every week or every time I feel like I get a little more snippet of what's going on in your head and getting to know you and peeling the layers back. And that's been my favorite part, truthfully.
Melissa: Oh, thanks!
Monica: So are you, how are you feeling about that? Are you getting comfortable with, I still laugh at one of the lines that you made when you were talking about some videos that you always looked like you were a hostage.
Melissa: I still kinda feel like I look like a hostage on video, but I'm practicing it and even, you know, I listen to myself sometimes and I feel like my voice is sort of not as natural as it would be if I wa- if I didn't know I was being recorded. I'm slowly warming up to it. It's a lot of fun.
Monica: Yeah, it is a lot of fun. Well, you sound great, and I feel like you sound really authentic and natural, so I'm really proud of you because I know this is sort of outside of your comfort zone, even though you're a completely established career and successful and business owner and speak in front of hundreds of people and clients and make pitches, but it does feel a little bit different, uh, speaking into a microphone and into computer screen, doesn't it?
Melissa: It does. It feels different. And it, and it also, it's not about my work. It, some of it's about me.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Melissa: And so I think that's kind of the struggle. Like, I'm pretty comfortable talking to people about their brand, but, you know, sharing about myself is just another step, but I feel like, you know, we really are encouraging women to open up to one another and share their passions and their dreams. And one of the things that Amy and I have really talked about and discovered is, you know, we have to do it.
Monica: Well, i, I found that really interesting on one of the podcasts where it was just you and Amy having a, a nice little conversation. Uh, and you spoke a lot about this sort of perfectionism that you're always sort of seeking and how it dawned on you, or it was very a telling sign. Felt it or saw it in your daughter?
Melissa: Yeah, it just kind of gave me chills in a bad way. I just could see myself in there and I felt like, not that I haven't been rewarded in some ways for it, you know, it's, it's good to be detail-oriented. It's it, you know, it's good to strive for some level of perfect or finished or you know your vision, but you can drive yourself and other people crazy with that behavior.
Monica: But I'm curious, as you've had time, I know so much of this last few weeks, it's been about hitting the pause button, Reflecting in everything you've done and now redirecting. I'm curious, have you given any thought of when that first started for you? Tell me about you in high school, for example, put yourself back to a 17 year old girl like your daughter. Tell me about what did that Melissa look like? What was your thing in high school?
Melissa: I mean I think my thing has always been art and creativity. I loved art classes in, in high school. I also was like really interested in culture. I did this kind of special pilot program that my high school had where it was, I think it was called East Asian Institute, but you studied Asian countries and you learn Japanese language. And then I went to Japan as a foreign exchange student. I sort of had a dream of working as a curator or in a museum. Like I loved museums, I loved art. Even as a high school kid, I used to ask for like the big monograph art books for Christmas in my birthday of like, you know, the coffee table. And stuff and I would sit in Barnes and Noble.
So I think I was kind of like an oddball teenager in that sense. Cause that's probably not your typical teenage fair. I was really into music. I was kind of one of the alternative kids. Some of my girlfriends and I like had fake IDs and we would go see like the alternative bands. When we were still in high school, weren't supposed to be out at nightclubs doing that.
I think the perfectionism is like a also kind of a response to, you know, wanting everybody to be okay. I remember when you were on the podcast the first time you talked about being a middle child and you know, trying to balance everything. And I wasn't a middle child, but I definitely like wanted my mom to be okay and my dad to be okay and my brother to be okay.
And I was just always trying to foresee what needed to get done in every situation so there were no hiccups. So I came by that at a pretty young age.
Monica: So is that the first time you remember thinking like, "I have to strive for better than everyone around me?" I mean, I'm just curious, when did you first realize that, or were you somehow told somewhere along the line that. Your work wasn't good enough or you weren't good enough that you sort of internalized it and said, "I'm going to now produce at a top level in everything I do."
Melissa: I think I just wanted to keep everything smooth and I wanted, You know, it's kind of funny because I think people think that perfectionism is something about drawing attention to yourself, but really in a weird way, it's like avoiding attention.
Like if you're not getting in trouble, you know, if your parents aren't upset, if they're pleased with you, if everything is even. So I had, I think, you know, super high-powered, high-energy, somewhat volatile parents, like they were both executives and they were always doing a lot. And I just felt like it was my job to make sure that I didn't call extra attention to myself, you know, that I met all the expectations and kept things steady.
Monica: Yeah. You, to me, sound like a really very old soul in many ways, and very mindful of everyone around you at a young age where most kids weren't thinking about, you know, they were going to high school games and,
Melissa: Right.
Monica: Sort of the next party I knew were very mindful of like, "Oh, this is, I'm gonna cultivate this art that I'm really digging." And culturally too, I think that's a very interesting perspective that it gave you going overseas and studying abroad just changes you too.
Melissa: Another sort of aspect of I think kind of the artist or the perfectionist, or is sort of like this arranger/ organizer aspect. I can remember from a very, very early age, like one of the most satisfying things to me was like hanging up everything up in the closet by color or like at the beginning of the school year, like packing my backpack a certain way or having like a certain amount of pen, like a certain amount of pencils.
And it's funny because my daughter has that same tendency, and sometimes I see it, like I know if I walk by her room and she's in there like rearranging a drawer, It's almost like a anxiety or a soothing behavior. So I came by it sort of naturally, and then over time it served me, right? Like, you know, if you find yourself in the design field though, all of those habits work out well, trying something over and over again, or reorganizing, cutting and pasting and reorganizing.
So, I Think maybe they were personality traits. Maybe they were a little bit trauma response, or maybe they were people pleasing at a young age. And then over time they developed into, "oh, these are like skills and career traits."
Monica: But you said, but as a kid, you were almost doing it not to be noticed. Sort of like, if you sort of do everything right, no one's going to be, you know,
Melissa: Yeah. You're not gonna get yelled at, you're not gonna get called on. You're not, you know,
Monica: that's interest- I'm just wondering if at some point you were called out and it made you feel not so great and you thought, "Okay, I won't do this again."
Melissa: And I think I've always kinda liked to stand behind the work. I can remember my very first job out of college, I was working as like an, an assistant exhibit developer, a science center in San Jose, California. And it was a brand new, like $90 million museum project. And everybody, even people at an assistant level were all hands on deck. And so when the museum opened, the president sort of did this, I guess he gifted it in a way, or he surprised the staff in a way by having in the wall where they'd noticed, um, where they honored like all of the donors.
They also had a wall of all of the staff members, and I can remember like seeing my name up there and it felt like, "Oh, I don't have to stand there. Like the work, you know, the work stands for me." Or like, so I do think that that that kind of has stuck with me of, you know, I can kind of stand behind the work and the work can speak for itself.
So this whole podcasting thing and putting my face on camera, putting my voice on camera is, you know, pretty new.
Monica: Oh, I bet. And also because it isn't always perfect, and we've, you and I have talked about this off- camera that the learning curve of the podcast alone is, there's so many elements. So in many ways, you have let go a bit, and that's a huge step for you.
What most people don't even realize, how big it is for you to let go and realize that it's maybe not the best work and, and that for you personally, even though for the rest of us it seems perfectly fine and we don't even notice those little details.
Melissa: Oh, but for me, it's like it keeps me up at night. I remember when we recorded you, Amy had this squeaky chair. I could not focus on the conversation because just that little bit of extra noise. And I think that's maybe like a hypersensitivity. I mean, maybe in a different day and age I, I would've been diagnosed with some sort of sensory processing disorder, but I really am very sensitive to like noises, and smells and textures and anything being slightly off.
I can remember going to people's houses, even as a young kid and wanting to rearrange the furniture. Like if there were two chairs and one was like slightly off from the other in terms of relationship to the sofa, like standing next to it with my hip and like scooting one over. It's like not like a typical like 9, 10, 11, 12 year old thing to do.
Monica: Not even like in the slightest. So are you, Did anyone ever notice and think, "what? What are you doing?"
Melissa: And it's not like a judgmental thing. It's almost like order or arrangement, whether it's symmetrical or asymmetrical, like some sort of balance. Just I find more s- more soothing in the environment.
Monica: How do the people around you level up to that? I mean, I know how I am in certain things with my pantry. I'm the same way. I have these little things where I, they just have to be a certain way and my kids look at me like, "You've lost your mind, mom. No. Why do you care so much about-" you know, whatever little that the cereal boxes are lined up exactly X, Y, Z. I drive, keep people crazy.
I drive my kids and my husband crazy with the dog here. Constantly like sweeping, sweeping. God forbid there's a dog here. Well, guess what world I own a dog and he's a black lab. There's a lot of dog hair in my house, but God forbid anybody see a, you know, one piece of hair out of place.
Melissa: Yeah. It's really, And for me, honestly, it's not so much about anybody seeing it, it's just about my peace and comfort in the environment.
Monica: Right. But obviously your family members feel it and if it's not that way,
Melissa: yeah.
Monica: You can't help yourself. So there's, it spills over to their, the way they do things.
Melissa: I think I've been very lucky in love that I married an artist who's like super meticulous and design oriented.
Monica: Okay.
Melissa: He's a musician, he's an artist, an introvert. Like he definitely, he's, you know, he definitely has like an appreciation for it and, and also he might be a little bit like that, and my daughter is turning out to me more like that. My son on the other hand is just oblivious. I mean, he is not paying attention to these things. They don't matter to him. He could care less.
I don't think we're driving him crazy. I think he just, "whatever, Mom, you're nuts." You know? He's just not paying attention to it. But I do remember as a kid, like in my house, my parents had this nickname for me. They would call me the Queen, and the queen wasn't necessarily like a compliment. It was like, "Oh, the Queen has to have everything like at, right angles."
"Oh, she can't have the fan too loud" or she can't, you know, can't have the blind half down. So it was, it was kind of a pet name, but it kind of had this sort of critical connotation to it of like, "Oh, we better check with the queen and make sure it, you know, she's okay with everything." I wasn't like that for any reason other than some internal drive to be that way.
You know, I didn't, I didn't wanna be better than anyone or I wasn't. It was just an internal drive.
Monica: Oh, it sounds like it. So now in your professional life with the people that you hire, I'm curious, does the Queen come out and is it where your now employees are like, "Oh, we better, The queen may or may not approve this?"
Melissa: I think sometimes I get pushback. I mean, I think some, I have actually surrounded with super high functioning, probably also perfectionist level talent. Like I have two writers and three designers who I have worked with now for like 12 years. And I think we're all like birds of the same feather. But ultimately I'm the creative director.
I have the final say. And so I think I do sometimes drive people crazy with, you know, maybe redoing work or adj-, you know, nudging that chair with my hip.
Monica: Right, right, right.
Melissa: When I was little. So I gotta, I gotta look out for that. And it's funny, Like, you know, to go full circle. I think seeing it in my 17 year old gives me pause because I do really wanna tell her, like, be careful.
It's not always, it can be perceived like, "Oh, it's the queen. She thinks she's better than everyone," and it also can hurt feelings. Because you're not giving other people a room to express themselves. You're correcting them. So you have to be careful. You have to, uh, you know, if you have these tendencies, I think you have to use 'em for good and not evil.
Monica: Absolutely. But I suspect the, uh, very confident women or people in your life actually respect your space and say, "Go for it, girl. Take it over because you got this and you can handle it, and we know you're gonna do it so much better." My life, my, I'm one of three for my sisters and my younger sister, erica is incredibly creative and has a beautiful eye and she can cook and she can do lots of things. Now I'm no fool. I know when to step aside. "Go ahead. Set the Thanksgiving meal!"
Melissa: Right!
Monica: I am happy to enjoy the feast.
Melissa: I often get asked like, "Will you come early and set the table?" You know, . So, but it- I like to, It's sati- tho those things are satisfying for me.
Monica: Well, that's great. So what has been the most satisfying things, Which are, which are you preferring the podcasts where you're actually talking with women or interacting behind the scenes with your facebook group?
Melissa: I mean, I really enjoy both. I have handled a lot of course of the design sort of aspect. I built the website and the, you know, I worked with one of a long time friend and designer on the brand and the color palette and the graphics, and so some of the things that I do for a job I've been doing for the Kindling project and all that stuff is satisfying, it comes naturally to me.
But I also think there's something, just like this idea was we're gonna spark a little fire, you know, for growth, for change, for exploration in other women. It has done that for me too, because not I'm, I'm outside of my comfort zone. I'm trying to learn a new thing and I'm trying to get better at something that doesn't come naturally.
So I think that is actually pretty satisfying. I could not even listen to the first like half a dozen podcasts without like losing my mind. And recently I've been listening to 'em and I feel like we're getting better at this.
You are
Monica: definitely getting better and they're really good, and you've had some really fascinating guests, and I'm not speaking about myself.
Some of these women that you've brought to the table have some really great things and have offered some fantastic advice. Do you have a favorite or have you taken some little tidbits that you are now? Practicing in your daily routine.
Melissa: I mean, there's a little bit of each podcast and each guest that just struck a chord with me or melted my heart or I was just surprised about how vulnerable they were or how inspiring they were.
And we kind of knew that we chose women, you know, everyone was like badass in some way. Right. And I do wonder sometimes about like, did we get enough out of them? Or, you know, some of them I know personally or I've seen them speak, or I've been on a board with them or you know, I have some other connection to them and then I feel like, well, how can we sum up this, this inspiring woman in 50 minutes?
So I think that, I just think that that sort of exposure when you're thinking about doing something or maybe you're thinking you can't do something to other women who have done it.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Melissa: I always find that inspiring. And so that was our hope, is that, you know, Linda, with her successful retail business, or Charlene taking women, On the Rubicon Trail and these like crazy like adventures in vehicles that, like how many women are doing this kind of thing.
So there was like just this, uh, spectrum of interesting accomplishments and, and, and also very different categories for everybody. Whether it was, you know, we had awesome uh, author and like witch, you know, And then we had a blogger, and then we had a fashion designer, and then we had, you know, an off-road driver in celebrity reality show for adventure.
It's been a nice mix, I think, and hopefully we're striking some chords. I mean, it is also hard to get people to even listen to a new podcast.
Monica: Oh what I found, honestly, uh, listening to all the speakers, I was less inspired by their career pro, their profession, if you will. And for me that takeaway in each episode was a life lesson.
Even from, you know, Keisha speaking about her girlfriend Jen, her ex-partner, and like, eat the damn burger. I mean, that really resonated with me. Like, yes, what? Why are we waiting for, to enjoy things in life? For what? At some point you have to sort of enjoy the damn hamburger, I think is what she said, or Linda's like circle time of really coming to her truths about everything from her child's addictions to her own situation, her divorces, those are the things that really stuck with me. It's those personal stories when women were shared in such a free way, is how I connected with them. So for me personally, I thought that was really well done for me- for me. You know?
Melissa: I think that's really a gift of Amy's. She can get to the vulnerability of another person. She's kind of, um, I didn't think you described her as like a warm, yummy blanket or something, but she has a very comforting energy. I don't know how well others are picking up on that through the podcast, but you know, I've known her 16 years. She just really has, and I'm sure it's some of the therapy training too, the ability to bring out the vulnerability and the realness and the honesty in others.
And I think that's an important, I think that's an important aspect of doing things because you know, we're talk, we were, we started this conversation about perfectionism and even if you don't suffer from perfectionism to the extent that I do, a lot of people are just afraid to get vulnerable. They're afraid to do something they're not comfortable with, or they might fail, uh, or they might waste money or time on.
I think we heard over and over again that like risk taking and overcoming obstacles is just the only way to get anywhere.
Monica: Yeah, and what I heard too is not so much vulnerability because listen, I'm not a big fan of the word only from this perspective. I don't like to simmer in it. I think like, yes, we all have these rawness or things in our junk drawer, type of thing. I think you say it and do it and deal with it, and then you move on and you are no longer that person. I like to believe in that. That's, that we all have the ability to do that. And so, uh, I think sometimes for me, when I hear vulnerability, it's like this weakness, and it's not a weakness.
It's your, i, I know you're just coming to the table with your truths, but I also think what I loved about these women is that they didn't stay in that. And that is, to me, was the takeaway. And so when you talk about your own perfectionism, is that even a vulnerability? Or is that, I mean, that's a pretty incredible skill too, you know, that, you really bring a lot of this- is it perfection or is it that you wanna do the best possible job? And you know that, that sometimes it's just not there, so you're willing to push a little bit more. Now, having said that, I know at some point there are deadlines and you've just gotta turn it in. It's like, you know, like at some point it's- it's never really going to be perfect, and I'm sure you've learned this too through the years, like looking at some back of the work you've done in the past and you look at it like, "Oh, I would completely do it differently now!"
Melissa: Oh, I mean, I have taken paintings off the wall and repainted them. I have taken websites down and redone them. On one hand, you're never done. It's never good enough. But on the other hand, I do also think I really enjoy the process. I can see, I can see like a little bit of tweaking or, "Oh wait, I didn't see this before, but now I know something new about this and I want to, I wanna have another go at it." So I don't, personally, I don't personally see it so much as like a weakness.
Although, you know, sometimes people are like, "Enough is enough," or maybe they're just like, Enough of you.
Monica: I respect what you're doing and I, and I honor you because you really do give your best to all your clients and the people in any project you get into. So with this podcast, I know you've mentioned with Amy, uh, which I've coined you, Melanie, and it's gonna be horrible, so I apologize.
You know, I can't help myself. I'm a nickname girl. I'm always like,
Melissa: I know! I'm okay with nicknames. I'm, I'm good with it.
Monica: I feel like I know it is super fluid and you're still figuring things out and I love that. But is there a, uh, backlash to that? Have you learned that from your last few months? Is it al-, I don't wanna say scattered, but are people not connecting? Are you finding it difficult to connect?
Melissa: I think we have gotten some feedback of like, "well, what exactly is the kindling project? Or what are you, what are you girls up to?" So I think we have gotten that and I think, I don't think I feel as pressured to have an exact answer as other people want me to have. I think that I feel like this is a process and we're inviting people into a process.
And I said this in, uh, the, a couple episodes ago. I'm really kinda agnostic about where it lands. I didn't really wake up one day and say, "Oh, I have to be a podcaster, or, Oh, I have to lead an online community, or I have to write a book, or I, I, I wanna do a TED talk." There wasn't like an, there wasn't like an actual outcome.
I woke up, if you will, through a series of conversations with Amy about how in our own lives and in so many of the women we know in their lives, there's sort of like an untapped potential. One of the things that super resonates with me, and I think you talk about it on your blog and you've talked about it on our podcast, is that sort of sleeping beauty or that sort of always doing for others.
And I felt like maybe it was turning 50 that I wanted to give some of my energy to that problem, if you will. I wanted to feed, I wanted to feed that fire in myself and in Amy and in other women, either through inspiration, through a podcast, through storytelling, through events. But the actual, What's the final goal?
I'm not super, I'm super not committed to what that ends up being, cuz it's a process and I don't know where it's gonna take us. So I'm okay with the ambiguity. That doesn't mean other people are comfortable with it. A lot of people don't like a white canvas or a blank page. They want to know what the story is about, and I think I tend to be just okay with the process, maybe more than your average bear.
Monica: For you though, because you have set up this space. And that is, it's all about creating a space, a landing spot for all of us who are just trying to, you know, that little nudge, that little fire. Has it been, are you overwhelmed with the response or are you feeling like, "why aren't more women jumping on this? I want them to, I wanna hear about this."
This is really meant to be a community and do you feel like women are still really hesitant to speak their their dreams?
Melissa: I do think that there's some holding back and I think part of that, You know, especially in the online community, you know, the internet is a really big space and we all, I think we have over 1400 women in there now.
That's a lot of people from all over the US and of course many of 'em are friends of me or friends of Amy, or friends of friends. You know, it's slow- it's slowly grows, right? But it doesn't mean they all know each other. And so there is sort of a hesitancy to share your secrets or to tell your story. So I do think there's an obligation on our part if this is gonna be successful, to try to figure out how to get more engagement or how to provide more value.
One of the things that we have done just very, very recently is um, we hired a young woman, Catherine, who's doing some podcast management. So she's doing some editing and she's doing some posting and then she's doing some research and she's been participating in our group and she's kinda coming up with some ideas for us to try, like whether it's taking surveys and "maybe we'll try to do some theme based groups like get a little group of writers together, or group of painters together, or group of photographers together." So how do we create value for people where they feel safe and they feel they can be open and they feel like they can go through some process of, "Hey, the Kindling project. I'm in the Kindling project, or I'm working on my kindling project." And, and, and they're okay saying that.
Monica: So, asidefrom this, also, I know this is part of your kindling project, one of your kindling projects, painting. I have learned Now you're a very talented, my friend, feel like we should have a little, you know, a little studio, a little, uh, gallery night.
I love, this is how I, this is how you roll. Like you are so like, "oh, Let me post this. This is what I did." It's very to the rest of the world where we're like, "How did you do that? How do you have so many talents? Girl, it's too much." I mean, I love it, but I'm like, Wow, it's a lot. You are really, really talented in so many levels. What a gift!
Melissa: Thank you. I'm just, It's just that natural creative director. I just come at life from that angle that that's all it is. That's, you know, it's whether it's decorating or design or entertaining or painting or building a website or creating an event for a client. It's just how I show up in the world.
And that's one of the things that I think is really, I mean, we're very, very different in some ways, but I think that's why Amy and I are a good partnership because she's also a person who really authentically shows up as a therapist or a trut-hteller or a soft place to land. You know, we both have kinda strong personalities and strong ways in the world that are distinctly our own.
Monica: How, How has it been though? That's been really interesting. Your friendship is, goes back years, decades. If I understand, neighbors, friends, raising family. And now your business partners, has it been everything you wanted it to be? Have there been moments like, "Okay, we've gotta separate the friendship here and let's really put on our business hat on?" have you had moments like that?
Melissa: I think that because for the most part, we're not being driven by typical drivers of a business. Like we haven't really spent any time thinking about generating revenue. like with my, with my primary business, you know, it's all fine and dandy that I'm a strong creative director and I surround myself with artists and designers and writers, but at the end of the day, we still have to make a profit. And I would love it if the Kindling project for myself, for Amy, for anyone who joins us as a partner or contributor or team member, if we can make money doing it. But it's not the primary driver.
So I think that's actually maybe some of those stresses are in our future. I think that, I think the stresses we've had to date have been like both of us trying to figure out, I mean, from the very first day, both of us trying to put a microphone together, both of us trying to figure out, you know, how Facebook Meta business suite works, and like, "how come I'm posting this in Instagram and Facebook and it's not showing up in our Ignite group!"
You know, like these sort of technical things that we're learning together. So we're still kind of like off on an adventure together, solving problems together. So that's almost bonding, right? Like when one of us is like, "Ugh, I figured it out!"
Monica: I know. It's fun that you're learning together and growing together. I think that's really special.
Melissa: Yeah. I mean, I think "that, you know, I think that like some of our natural tendencies where like she tends to be off to the races, like gets excited easily and like dives in and I tend to be like, "Oh wait, wait, wait. Let's plan this. Let's get a list." You know, like how cold is that water? Like do we have towels? You know, that provides a creative tension too, right. I pull her back from the edge and she shoves me over the edge. I think that we both sort of dream about spending our time, our professional time, this sort of end of our career, if you will, doing more things with women, doing more things. I mean, I don't know.
I don't wanna be bashing guys or anything. I mean, I love my husband, I love my son. There's lots of great guys, but like I'm just done with the guy stuff. I would love to just have the kindling project drive both Amy and I off into the sunset where we really can generate a livelihood, having wonderful events for women, or you know, seeing other women's kindling projects come to fruition because of something we created.
Monica: I love that you're saying that, but I'm curious, is there space in this to learn from men, what they've done, what they currently do, what they do very well?
Melissa: I mean, I feel like we've been getting their lessons forever. No, it has to be a safe space for women, and I think one of the things that makes those spaces safe is to not have the male gaze on you. And that's just for me. I'm, you know, I'm speaking for myself only.
Monica: No, that's fair. That is a fair, I, I, I appreciate you and I think you're coming from the perspective that you are out there actively growing a business and you are deal- you deal with men all the time in your professional world.
So you understand that it's a saturated market. Men are doing their thing just fine. Um, women, we need our space. But I, I guess what I'm saying is not necessarily invite them into this space, but maybe learn is there something that we can learn from them?
Melissa: I recently, I think I told you about it, I joined Business Mastermind group that was very, very heavily male dominated, like 80 or 90% male dominated. And I flew to Dallas a few times for their meetings and I really kind of immersed myself for six months in their culture. And I did see things that men do for men, uh, you know, maybe it's a team mentality or a sports mentality or it's cultural, then I would come back and think, you know, women don't always do that for each other.
So may, you know, maybe, maybe they are able to take the reins or sit at the head of the conference table or take the lead because they have their- each other's backs in a way that we don't always have and maybe we're not always encouraged to have.
Monica: Okay, so you bring up a good point. Why is it that women don't have each other's back? Why is it that it starts in, you see it young, in high school or in lower school? And I mean, I've been raising two boys and I can tell you compared to the stories I've heard from some of my girlfriends who have girls completely different as far as including and being accepting and being- it's- girls very early on, begin to sort of work against each other.
Jealousy. I'm not even quite sure at that age why they're so selective about who's who and what, what's important? Somehow getting categorized, but, and then it, it sort of transfers into our adulthood. Don't you feel that way?
Melissa: I remember. Somewhere along the middle school line for my daughter, I went to a presentation at our local library about bullying, and I remember one of the slides that I, that I really took away from was that exclusion is one of the worst forms of bullying, and I think exclusion might be practiced by girls more than it's practiced by boys. I don't know if there's any data on this. This is just my instinct because it's not overt. If boys have some, a beef with each other, I mean sometimes they solve it by hitting the other person. Right? And we're told like, to be nice and to not be overtly aggressive in any way.
And so, so by default, one of the ways I think that girls sort of bully each other or sort of, you know, find their way in the world is through this exclusion behavior. You know, leaving someone out. You can't sit with us, you can't swim with us. We all decided to wear pink today and nobody gave you the memo, whatever it is. It's like, it really kinda struck me that when they were talking about, you know, teenage suicide and teenage depression and teenage anxiety and middle school bullying, what a big role exclusion plays. That's a powerful kind of female negative energy, I think.
Monica: So, and, and, and have you found it at all in, in trying to create this group that you, Is this a, has this been an issue? Not an issue, but a thing that's come up?
Melissa: I haven't, I mean, I haven't, because both Amy and I are super welcoming and, you know, arms open. Everybody's welcome. So, I mean, I think that sort of goes against our, our inclination to be open. You know, it, it, we kind of set out with intention that this is for women. That's a big group that's half the humans. Right. And so, you know, if we're excluding anyone, it's just the guys and it's just, you know, it's, it's not out of an unkindness, it's, it's just a, it's just an active decision for this to be a female space.
Monica: I feel like they are looking for that story if you will. Without any of the stuff. It's, everyone's accepted, like we all wanna be part of a story of a group of community, and I think that you're creating that, which is lovely.
Well, and
Melissa: I think there is something, I mean, people complain about the internet and they complain about, you know, anonymous keyboard warriors and, and there's lots of negative things to say about it.
But one of the beautiful things to say about it is you can find your community if you can't find it in real life. It has been said to me or brought to my attention of like, "Oh, there's a lot of groups like yours, or there's a lot of podcasts like yours." And I don't find that a deterrent because I think every individual group is gonna have its own character and it's gonna, and it's gonna attract the people that belong there, the people that it resonates with.
And there could be a million Kindling projects or a million kindling project podcasts, but each one is gonna have the character of the people who are doing it. And that's gonna resonate with somebody.
Monica: For sure. And I've-I see that, I find that with my blog too. I mean, there are millions of people writing blogs.
I find that, you know, whatever I bring to the table, it either does or it either resonates with my subscribers or it doesn't, and some people don't subscribe and I'm okay with that. I mean, I have friends in my circle that don't, it's not their cup of tea. And I, I can, we can coexist. I appreciate that because it's not for everyone.
Melissa: I think, I think that if we just set out what with our best intentions, the people that are supposed to find it, will find it.
Monica: One of the reasons that I wanted to- to speak with you guys individually is because I think your listeners really need to understand who you are, and, and what you're all about and not just your perfectionisms or your perfect logos.
It's that you are real women doing real things and having issues with kids and family life and also balancing, and it's not all perfect. And I personally, I feel that's when you get the most connection. It's When you realize, "oh, we're, they're just not these celebrities or that are just playing, you know, doing this. They are really living the same obstacles and the same challenges that the rest of us are just trying to get through." And it is hard when you're balancing a mom. You're be, you're a mom, you're a business owner, you're a wife, you're a friend, you're a sister. There's a lot of titles and I'm pretty sure I know which one your favorite is.
But as you evolve and you start looking at painting, Are there any other little fires in there that we need to discover about you?
Melissa: I don't know. I guess we're gonna find out. I mean, I guess we're gonna find out, you know, Amy and I are talking about doing some workshops and we're both working on some workbooks, kind of like a step by step or a process or you know, a journal or a tool to guide you through your kindling project.
So we'll see how those land. And it is true what you're saying that the hardest part of anything is the balancing and the juggling, right? Just in this short time that Amy and I have started this, you know, we both had some really serious hard life stuff happen to us. Real- and to our kids and in the world, right?
Monica: So, Mel, how do you do that? What- what are you doing? I know I also heard recently that you're actively working on creating more space for yourself, for self care, for what serves you, what feeds your soul. So I'm curious how, how is that coming along? Are you able to, are you, are you doing it?
Melissa: I have been painting more in the last couple months.
I mean, not a lot, not as much as I'd like to, but in the little bits of time that I have, you know, I'm a person who's chronically suffering from insomnia. So maybe it's at night, you know. Maybe, or maybe it's when other people are watching TV in my house. I mean, I don't really have an outcome in mind. It's more I just wanna get back to it.
Monica: And what about things like you've talked about working out or you used to really enjoy, or yoga when you do it, have you found space for that in your life?
Melissa: I haven't, I would say that's my biggest falling down area of, I am such an inconsistent exerciser and I know I need to do it, and I know I actually feel better when I do it, but I am terrible about prioritizing that time to go and do it.
Just getting it on the schedule. I mean, I have so many things on my schedule. Whether it's- You know, you know how it is as a parent. Like you've got your kids' sports and their doctor's appointments and their homework and their school clothes shopping and their haircuts. Like a million things make my schedule before me just getting to yoga or me just getting to a personal trainer.
Monica: I find it interesting that you're an overachiever, and if you choose to do something, you go all in and we'll do it successfully and happily, and yet maybe in an area that you have found to like waiver back and forth, you're like, "Ah, it is easier. I'm not even gonna try." Because you, if you wanted to make time, we all know we make the times, we make time for the things we wanna do.
Melissa: It's true. It's true. I need to put it, I needed to put it up higher on the list for sure. And that's,
Monica: Well, it's not important to you. I mean, maybe it isnt' important to you or maybe it's something that you've, throughout your life, it hasn't yielded the results you wanted in the sense of that perfectionism, and you're like, "Well then I'm not interested in it. That's because I only do things at a high level." I'm not sure, are you working on any really exciting projects on your professional life with your design company?
Melissa: I mean, this year our two biggest projects are, um, with long-term clients, we redid websites and did annual reports and did some new branding for the Fisher Foundation and for McGregor Fund, which are big giving institutions, organizations in metro Detroit area.
I do have to say that sort of the nonprofit foundation work is super rewarding for me. Cause you get to be a, you get to be a part of something that's for the greater good. It's about giving back, you know, it's about arts or it's social justice or, you know, trying to end racism or trying to make the environment more sustainable.
Uh, so I do really enjoy when my design work is in sync with some other values and that I get to contribute my design work to something that ultimately I feel good about.
Monica: Yeah. It sounds like that's a theme in your life. Doing things that are giving back. And somehow when you're doing these different, I know you offer various services, what is your ultimate favorite? Is it the actual building of the website? Is the branding, is it coming up with what they stand for? What's your favorite?
Melissa: My favorite kind of things are about creating experiences.
Monica: So when you say that either through website interaction or through actual trade shows?
Melissa: It's more about, I always say this like we, I renamed my company recently to Memora, which is a shortening of the word memorable, But even before we were Memora, our tagline was, "we create memorable experiences."
And I really find it satisfying. You know, I worked in museums for 10 years and to see somebody interacting with something you made or to be delighted by something you made, or to be proud of something you made. And so that's sort of, that's sort of where I get my fuel or my kindling, is if, if, if people are proud of the work that they did with me or they're getting complimented on it, or their business is growing because of it, I sort of just like that space where, um, it's, it's about sort of delight and memory and I think about it in terms of like, you know, how you go to some people's houses and, and it, you just love going there because there's just something about that experience? Like maybe they always have like a bacon smell or maybe they have the softest blankets.
I just like that sort of tactile mark that design can have on a person.
Monica: Yeah. It sounds like you're that- that same feeling you had when you saw your name on that wall back in the day. It's like that same feeling, like, "Oh, okay, I'm part of something here that it's good. This is good." You know? So a lot of these women that we talked to, Melissa, both you and I, it's like we asked them like, "What's your thing? What's your fire?" You know, we get so excited and we're like, "Tell us, Tell us!" And they're like, "I don't know. Nothing." Or they, they don't think, they, they have never even thought about it or, or don't allow themselves. It's time to think about it. We should create a space where they can come play with different areas. So maybe we can start their fire, we can be the spar, we can light it.
Melissa: I think that's where this is going. And maybe it's not a podcast. Maybe it is a podcast. Maybe the podcast is a compliment to it, but it's, it's just getting that fire going.
Monica: Yeah. So I'm gonna ask you a few more questions before we wrap up and more fun. Like easy. Give me one of your pet peeves.
Melissa: Mean girls. I'm really, I'm really not about that gossip.
Monica: I love you cuz you're always the one, you're the one person that's always said to me when I get together with women, I wanna talk about ideas and things and how we're gonna move the dial. And not in a serious, like, we can only be business. Like, no, there's a lot of laughter, a lot of fun. But we have, You have no space for backpack- boom, boom, boom. No. Woo!
Melissa: I don't have any. I don't have any space. I don't want any of that.
Monica: Listen, this is happening. You have nothing on the calendar. You are not allowed to speak to a client. You're not allowed to talk up to a kindling project person. You're not even allowed to talk to your favorite gal, amy. What do you do for fun?
Melissa: I'm Making something.
Monica: People or animals?
Melissa: Oh, that's a hard one cuz I love people and animals, but I think people.
Monica: Celebrity crush?
Melissa: Jeff Goldblum.
Monica: Hey! That's a tell sign. Okay. Okay. Uh, your least favorite house chore?
Melissa: Oh, least favorite chore. Hmm. Yard work.
Monica: Party tricks?
Melissa: Oh, party tricks. I'm a good connector.
I think at the end of the party, like I have set, I have set people up to be friends or to date or to do a business deal or you know, whose energy needs her energy that that, I think that's what I'm good at.
Monica: That's good. That's great. And do you have any current obsessions?
Melissa: So I'm obsessed with this British TV show called The Repair Shot.
Monica: Oh, what's it about?
Melissa: And it's this beautiful barn, old barn with a hay roof in the English countryside. And they have all these craftspeople in there and people, it's sort of like Antiques Roadshow with like this repair angle. So people bring in a broken clock and then they follow this highly, highly skilled craftsperson taking apart this clock and putting it back together.
Or somebody brings in their mom or their grandma's broken candy dish and this potter, like glues it all back together and then re-sculpts the flowers and repaints it and hands it back to them in perfect shape. And I just love that simplicity of whether it's, you know, refinishing a table or repairing a painting that you start with one thing and then you end up with another thing and the transaction is so clean.
Right. I just love, I say to Matt all the time, I just wanna work at the repair shop. There's no politics.
Monica: Well, I think it's just turning things into beauty. It's, I love it. Okay. And what would you say is your best quality?
Melissa: I'm kind, I don't really have a mean bone in my body.
Monica: And now finally, what would you say to a call of action if you Are these, someone's listening for the first time, they're just learning about the canoeing project. What's, what's your messaging to them?
Melissa: I think that if you are kind of wondering, "oh I don't know if I have a kindling project."
One thing that people say to me all the time is, "Oh, I'm not creative." Which I don't buy that anybody's not creative. I just do not buy this. But may-, you know, maybe your Kindling project isn't around creativity, you know, maybe it, maybe it's around, you know, feeding the hungry or, you know, cleaning up a pond. I don't know what it is, but I would say that the, the best way to get in touch with it is to try to remember back to experiences where you lost time. I think this is something my, my friend Lisa, who was on our podcast talked about, but when, when you're in line with your kindling project or your passion, there's no sense of time there. You could spend all day doing it or you know, where does your mind go when it just wanders off? Like for me it's like always sort of arranging things, rearranging furniture, putting colors together or, but whatever it is for you where you lose time, where your mind wanders, where it's just a very natural space for you. That's the answer.
Monica: That, that is a great way to end it. And you are absolutely right. It's that flow. It's where it just doesn't even feel like work, and that's why that's when you really bloom. That's when the garden really just takes off. I love the way you said it. I think that's, that will resonate with people. So thank you, Melissa. I just wanted everyone to know, I mean, I know how amazing you are.
I know how fabulous Amy is. I want the world to really see you guys shine so bright because you. So special and what you're doing is so, uh, magical and, uh, we need women to jump on board and just create more.
Melissa: Thank you so much for interviewing me and for being my dear friend and just for getting me.
Sometimes I feel like there's a lot of people don't get me and I'm a weirdo and I just-have from the moment I met you, I feel like she gets me.
Monica: I see you, girl. I see all of you and you're amazing. Keep going.
Melissa: So are you. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for being the, This is the final episode! Episode 20 of the Kindling Project. Our first season we did it!
Monica: Congratulations! We're gonna go and drink some champagne tonight. What do you think?
Melissa: I'm in!
Monica: I'm in too! Let's do it!
Melissa: And wine! All right. So I wanna thank everybody for listening to today's episode. Please give us a rating and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to be notified whenever there's a new episode.
And be sure to join our online community, The Kindling Project, Ignite on Facebook. You can find me, Amy Monica, some of our dear friends and, and some of the other women who have joined us there and who are starting to put a little kindling on one another's kindling project. Thanks for standing by us and supporting us through this first season of The Killing Project Podcast!
Be sure to check out our guest resources. We'll have a link to Monica's blog and our show notes today, as well as a link to the Kindling Project Ignite, and we will see you all soon! We'll be back in the winter!