Everyday magic with Jacki Smith
Jacki’s energy and laid-back personality make this interview extra special. Her easy-to-talk vibration normalizes conversations around spirituality and magic. She is the founder and president of Coventry Creations, a locally-based, internationally-known maker of spiritual products, and co-owner of the Candle Wick Shoppe in Ferndale, MI.
“I was wanting to make holiday gifts for my loved ones. So I made these candles for them as holiday gifts, because that's all I could afford to do. I stumbled across some candle-making supplies and I made other little crafty things. I've always been a crafty person.”
In 1992, Jacki was the first on the national market with her Blessed Herbal Candles. This line gave birth to the spiritual candle industry. Over the past 25 years, she has created hundreds of magical candles, teaches spiritual development classes, podcasts, volunteers, and is a best-selling author of Coventry Magic and co-author of DIY Akashic Wisdom, Access the Library of Your Soul.
Jacki has dedicated her entire life to the mission of normalizing the words “Witch” and “Magic” in everyday life.
“When I would say, ‘I do magic, we make magical candles.’ And they go, ‘well, what happens? You pull a rabbit out of it?’ And that was the – that was like the standard answer when I would- started claiming the title witch, it was like, ‘what? I don't see any warts on your nose. You turn green?’ “
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Melissa: Hi, welcome to the kindling project podcast! This is the show where we share stories from inspiring women all over. Giving us insight into the people and processes that help them bring their kindling project to fruition. Here and over in our Facebook group, the kindling project ignite, we are all about creating a space to empower and support women with any and all of their individual aspirations.
I'm Melissa, artist, entrepreneur and creative director at Memora Design Agency, here with my co-host Amy, a licensed social worker, therapist, and yoga instructor. For today's episode, we are joined by Jacki Smith, founder and president of Coventry Creations- an internationally known maker of spiritual products and co-owner of candlewick shop in Ferndale, Michigan.
Jacki was one of the first to bring spiritual candles to market. And over the past 25 years, she has created hundreds of magical candles, teaches spiritual development classes and podcasts, volunteers and is a best-selling author. Her latest book, The Big Book of Candle Magic is an in-depth guide to casting your own spells.
Jacki has dedicated her entire life to the mission of normalizing the words, "witch", and "magic." Welcome, Jacki.
Jacki: Thank you so much, Melissa! I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be part of the powerful women trio at this moment. I feel the power rising!
Amy: Thank you, Jackie.
Jacki: I started Coventry Creations, um, 30 years ago, which is- I have to stutter when I say that, cuz it's hard to believe that it was 30 years ago. I was 24 years old. Although, now I tell people I was four years old.
Amy: *laughing*
Jacki: But um,
Amy: Right.
Jacki: 24 years old.
So, um, but no, actually, no, I'm really proud. I'm really proud of- of being 54 years old this year. And I'm really proud of everything that I've done. And, um, actually just in a few days, I'll be 54. I keep thinking it's way far in the future, but it's actually real close, but, um, in August this month is our 30th anniversary.
Um, it's August is my month. Big things happen in August for me. I dunno. It's my birthday month.
Amy: Love that.
Jacki: What um, 30 years ago, I wanted to make- it was a little more than 30 years ago. I- I was wanting to make holiday gifts for my loved ones. So people who have been really supportive of me, I was wanting to go to school and I was working like a bunch of odd jobs and as well as having my full-time job and really struggling financially. And I had some people who were really supporting me. So I made these candles for them as holiday gifts, because that's all I could afford to do. I stumbled across some candle making supplies and I made other little crafty things, I've always been a crafty person. I have a lot of artists in my family.
That's not- I'm not necessarily a fine artist. But I can craft a lot of bunch of good stuff together. And, uh, and so that's what I did. And they were so well- received. People were falling all over themselves for these candles that I made, because what I did is, back then, your candle options were some scented candles that you would get, say from you know, Hudson's, because that's what it was back in the day.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: Or,
Amy: Love that.
Jacki: Or Kmart because that's who it was back in the day. Um, it just- these things that you would find. Dinner tapers were the jam back then. If, um, if you were in the spiritual world, you would get seven day candles, which were tall and encased in glass, or you would get little small candles. There weren't like the candle options you have today. You think "candles, whatever everybody's got candles," not a lot of people had candles back then. And I wanted to- I was studying herbalism and I really wanted to put all of the things I was learning in herbalism and craft the perfect sentiment for my loved ones.
I had someone who was in college and struggling. So I made the Vision Quest Problem- Solving candle for that person. So whenever they studied, they would retain everything. And of course, I- the very, very first candle I made was of course the prosperity candle, the money candle, because that's where we start.
And, um, and I made that for not only myself, but for other people that around me being 24 years old, you know, all my friends were struggling financially. And then, it just- on and on it went, you know, a love candle, a happy home candle, all these different things. And- and so the first 18 candles I made were specific gifts for specific people.
And I put the herbs and the oils, and I wrote blessings for each one. I didn't realize that, that no one had done that on a big level. And I loved talking about how people ask. After I gave these gifts and they were really poorly made candles. I'm I'm not gonna say that they were great. I made 'em in like tuna fish, tins and pop bottles, you know, one liter, plastic pop bottles, whatever I could find.
And then I made some in PVC tubes that I had in my basement. And the- those PVC tube ones, the ones are, everyone was really excited about because they fit inside the empty seven day glass. And that's what I made on that size. And so, and that's the size of my blessed herbal candle. And people ask me for more.
They're like, "can I get another one? Can I buy some more from you?" I'm like, "maybe... I guess so. Sure...?" But it took me six months. People were asking me on a regular basis for more candles cuz they- they loved him and they worked so well. I mean, now 30 years later, six months is like a blink of an eye. But if you think about it then, I really got in my own way.
And finally, six months later, I started making some more and I took 'em to a few stores and- and they were like, "yeah, I want these! Can I have the whole box?" And around that time I was- the Detroit area had like, double- digit unemployment. It was 1992. The unemployment was in the teens, the percentages, it was- nobody had a job.
And so former husband and I were gonna go to Seattle because every- they were- they had single digit unemployment. Everybody had a job in Seattle! They were big and they were paying for people to relocate there.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: And borrowed money to go. And I took some of that money we borrowed and made a whole bunch of candles.
So I was gonna sell candles when we were there. And thank goodness. There was a big fight about that, because that was our food money. We were there and I'm like, "oh no, we're gonna sell some candles and then we can eat." And then when we got there, the headlines read that Boeing had laid off what, 30,000 employees, like an insane number of employees.
And thank goodness I had my candles that came on the plane with us. Again, this is a long time ago when I could just bring whatever I wanted- like my luggage.
Amy: Right. Pre- 9/11.
Jacki: Yeah. And, oh my goodness. It was- they looked like a whole bunch of sticks of dynamite and now they let that go through on the- on flammable.
I took those to Seattle and we sold all of them. We came back with more money than we left with. We paid back my father-in-law and had money to boot. And then there were stores who- because I had put my phone number on the label. Like, "If you want more call me!" That was my marketing. And there were three different stores from other parts of the country who found them while we were in Seattle.
I came home to, uh, voicemails on my answering machine. Yes, we had answering machines at that time!
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: No cell phones, no pagers yet. And answering machines were a big deal. They were new then. And so I had these stores saying, "I want your products!" And then that's when Coventry was born. That was when I was a real business.
I said, "okay, well now- we're now we're in business." We would double in business like every month, every quarter, every year for like, the first five years, which is totally crazy and unsustainable. I had people telling me- business professionals telling me like, "yeah, girl, this is great. It's not sustainable. You're not gonna get this with anything else. Good for you. Good on you. This is out of control." And at 24 to 30 I'm, you know, I- my ego's huge. I can do no wrong. I've dranken my own kool-Aid. And I'm just doing one product line. That's all I'm doing. And- and now I'm gonna, "oh, I'm gonna be great. I'm gonna bring this other product line out and it's gonna do just as great!"
And it doesn't, and I'm disappointed. And so I keep growing, and growing, and growing, thinking that this is always gonna grow. And then at about year seven, I started losing business at 20 and 30% a year. So that journey has been a roller coaster ride. After that, we were almost by year 10, I was, you know, $300,000 in debt and didn't know what I was doing and- and, um, ready to close the doors. At the same time I have this great unique product that no one else had done. That was growing like crazy. And of course more people came out on the market with a similar product. And so it's- it's interesting today when I look around at all of the candle products or similar centered products like this that are for love and prosperity and- and empowerment and all this stuff. And I'm like, "I started that!
Amy: Yeah.
Melissa: You did!
Jacki: I was the one who proved that model. I was the one who went and took that risk and- and built that foundation. And I'm really, really proud of that.
Melissa: Oh my God, I feel so proud of you! This is a great story!
Amy: It is. Did you ever get anything copyrighted? Is that something that you copyrighted, Jacki?
Jacki: Um, I- yeah, I have copyrights and trademarks, um, on my- on my text and trademarks on my logo. It's not really a unique thing I'm doing in making candles. It's a unique idea.
Amy: Right.
Jacki: But it's not something I can say., "You can't put love on a candle!" Because it's- it just, you know, you can't do that. It doesn't stand up in a court of law as it were.
And then the amount, you know, within a year and a half of being in business, there was another company who literally photocopied my labels and did a little cut and paste and rearranging, made their own version of it even to the same size. And I'm like, "that's it! I'm taking 'em out! I'm gonna own their candle company!"
And really, and I- when I took it to the lawyers and I- and I said, "that's it, I'm taking 'em out." They're like, "yeah, you can't. Yeah. You can tell 'em not to do that. You can tell 'em to make their own labels, but we're in a free trade country."
Amy: Yes.
Melissa: Mm-hmm .
Jacki: And- which is why I can do what I do. You can't copyright a recipe.
All of these things play in. And at this time I was mad. I was like, so mad. I wanted to burn- burn it all down. Then they said to me, "we can pursue this and it's gonna cost like a minimum of $10,000, or you can take that same energy and money and put it into marketing and be better than everyone."
Amy: Mm-hmm
Jacki: Well, that blessed me.
I didn't have it to do either . And so that company owned the market share for many years and looking back that's okay. Because I just kept doing what I do. I kept my integrity. I kept my focus. The reason why I make candles. Is that first reason- because of my loved ones. And I wanted to help create a space and an energy for them to manifest something different. To break through their problem, to bring healing, magical healing into their life, to help them shift their energy so that they had a new perspective and can make a new choice.
And that's always been my motivation and that's always been what I do. Any new product I do, it has the same goal. And so the competitors, they're just making a candle with a name.
Amy: Yeah.
Melissa: Yeah.
Jacki: And so that's why at 30 years I'm back to being the leading intentional, magical candle, inspirational candle company.
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: I wish I was the leading candle company in the country, but you know that- I think Yankee's got that. Actually probably Colonials got that. That's okay. They can have that. I have this part of the world and I love it.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: And- and I'm very proud of what we do. And so staying in your integrity, staying true to your course, which I veered off at times, "I'm gonna start just making candles for anybody, and I'm gonna do this," thinking that I had to do that to compete and then remembering who I am and remembering why I wake up every day.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: Why I do this every day. I got back to being profitable. I got back to having joy in my life. I got back to having joy of why I do this.
Amy: Yeah.
Melissa: This is such a- this is such a key, uh, value for Amy and I and for The Kindling Project.
Um, and it's just really about being authentic. And I think that that shines through and, and people probably do feel it in your product. I know they feel it in your store. I've been in your store. And it just resonates with people or it vi-, you know, it's on a different vibrational level when it comes from like, a true place of authenticity.
I just have to believe that. And I- and I- and I just know it to be true.
Jacki: Yeah. Anyone who's on that journey of- of that business journey or that personal journey of like finding, as an author or an artist or whatever your personal journey is, as a mom, as a- as a human being.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: You're gonna find times when you are no longer authentic to yourself,
Melissa: Right. It's worse.
Jacki: Yeah. When you feel the pressure to behave in a different way or fill a need or a mold, or get a- you know, "I gotta get a different job to pay the bills so I can follow my passion. And that that job kind of sucks. "It's not me, but it pays the bills," and that's-
Amy: Right.
Jacki: Okay. You know, having this 30 - year retrospective and saying, "oh yeah, I remember that time when I was trying to make candles for that furniture company. And I was really pursuing that thing because I thought it was gonna be a thing,"
Amy: mm-hmm
Jacki: "and I invested in all that. And I hated it, but I learned a lot and I survive. "
Amy: Right. It's part of your story. That's the thing. And- is that having that retrospective of 30 years, you know, that's one of the benefits of where we all sit at this as women is that we do have that retrospective of, you know, that it's- it's part of the story, even though at the time, it's so tough to be in it. And that's something that is really important I think with integrity and with intention, is that you have to keep going. You have to just keep spinning that wheel and spinning that wheel, even if it's- we're not in a place that is so ideal.
Jacki: Mm-hmm
Amy: And it sounds like you really did that. You know, one thing, Jackie, I'm curious about, we wanna talk about your book, but I- I- I wanna know- because obviously you had some strong intuition of those intentions of- of wanting to bring in these good thoughts for people. And that was pretty intuitive at a- at a younger age of- of wanting to do this, especially at a candle, you know, I can see- or with a candle, I can see, you know, writing note something along that line, but to attach it to a candle, we wanna know about how that intersection of witchcraft came into to the fold for you and how that evolved.
Jacki: I have always been a very intense spiritual person. So I was brought up Catholic. I didn't like going to mass, but, I loved the concept of Jesus. I loved the concept of spirituality. I love that concept of that spiritual love. And I was fortunate, I had an uncle who is a priest, and so there was many times when my uncle was in town, we would have mass at the house.
Amy: Oh, that's so cool.
Jacki: All- all the family members- my mom's from a big family, so the whole family would gather at the house and we would have mass. And that was amazing and beautiful and spiritual.
Amy: Mm-hmm
Jacki: So that was- what a blessing, right?
Amy: Yeah.
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: When I was really little, you know how you have that little list of things you wanna be when you grow up?
Amy: Mm-hmm
Melissa: mm-hmm
Amy: Definitely.
Jacki: You know, teacher, therapist, nun, that was on it.
Amy: *laughing*
Jacki: and then-
Amy: I love that.
Jacki: And then as I grew up and I found out what nuns don't do...
*Laughing*
Melissa: *Laughing*
Jacki: And what they have to do. Nun was off the list.
Amy: Mm-hmm
Jacki: But then I- but I wanted that spirituality in my life. So it was a search. And then one day I came across runes in a- at a bookstore, this book of runes.
Amy: Mm-hmm
Jacki: And I went, "what is this! This is cool!" And so it just led me to the- and I found a book of dreams and I think I was like 19, 20 years old. I'm like, "what is this miraculous thing? There's more to life than this?" And then I started looking into metaphysics,
Amy: mm-hmm
Jacki: And then- which led me down these different rabbit holes.
And then I found witchcraft. And, actually I found Wicca, which- and the Scott Cunningham books and Starhawk, and with these deep spiritual paths, now I'm not Wiccan. I studied that. I've studied many paths. I incorporate a lot of paths, I'm pretty eclectic. I mean, I've studied different Christian paths. I've studied Cabala, I've studied a lot of different things and- and there's amazing value.
So to me, I'm a student of the spiritual journey to connecting to your divine allies, to Divinity. To a greater force, even if that greater force is the collective of humanity. I enjoy watching that journey that people are on and I'm fascinated by it. So how does candles attach to that? Well, again, as a kid, I always love candles.
Like, oh, so much goes back to our childhood, right? When we get older, we- those things from childhood either get healed or rediscovered. And I was fortunate enough to bring a lot of that stuff along. So my journey of childhood is I love candles. I always got in trouble around the candles, because I'd make wax go everywhere.
And then, um, rediscovering candles during this spiritual journey. And one of the things I love about candles is that in candle magic is there is a- an immediate visual visceral representation of your intention, your magic manifesting. It's the candle's getting smaller. It's melting down. You can, depending on the candle you use, you can read the wax as it melts or read the smoke or, um, see what's happening with it. So there's something going on. I might be an impatient person, so I need something going on to tell me things are going. So, um, I like how candles have been timekeepers. So it kind of tells you, "Hey, remind you that it's gonna take some time for things to happen."
And I also love the visual of heaven, an earth meeting. As that candle burns down, heaven and earth come together to manifest your goal. That's what I love about they're so interactive. I mean, you think you just set it and forget it, you know, although never leave a burning candle, unattended. You light your candle and you're good, but you light your candle and you say your intent, you say your blessing and then you extinguish it when you're- when you need to go onto something else.
And then you relight it. You take this same intention in this little ritual and you have a bunch of mini rituals. And so you are resetting your intention. That's such a powerful thing to say, "oh, that's right. I am manifesting this in my life. I need to do this over and over again."
Amy: Yeah.
Melissa: And I think- I think about there's also something so primitive about fire, so basic about fire that, you know, there's the wax and there's the smoke, but there's also the flame.
Jacki: Flame has always represented spirit. I forgot to mention that. Heaven and earth coming together, but that flame is your spirit or the spirit of the divine. If you think about that kind of painting spirit, the divine paintings always was it like little lick of flame above people's heads.
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: It is representive of a force greater than you.
Amy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacki: You use all of the elements when you're making, and when you're using a candle, you- it ends up going through all of the elements in the creation process, so.
Melissa: One thing that I wanted to ask you about, which also feels like a process or a journey to me is in your book, you describe, you know, five concepts of magic, I believe? Or five concepts of witchcraft? But it- it was kinda- there's that little diagram where you've overlayed it on Maslow's diagram.
And that really hit me when I was talking to Amy this morning about, is the book her kindling project? Or is the manufacturing her kindling project? Or is the store her kindling project? And it just really hit me. It's- it's much more conceptual than that, that you sort of identified a process or a journey in your own words. Could you maybe go through those five steps or intentions with us?
Jacki: I came about them when I was simplifying things for necessity. Um, creating these point-of-purchase cards, to teach people how to use my candles in a multiple ways. Because it's just all in your perspective on how you can set your intention and move the energy.
I had all of these different, "you can use it for this," you know, 20 different ways. And then I'm like, "well, that's not gonna fit on a small card. No one wants to read that. So how can I condense it?" As I was kind of, condensing it all, I realized everything came down to five core concepts. There's five branches of magic, five styles of magic you're gonna do. You're gonna do a magic about money, possessions a prosperity, uh, something like that, or you're gonna do magic around protection or safety or security. You're gonna do magic about a relationship, love, whether it's- it could be family relationship, work relationship, any communication and interaction you have with another being that's, you know, love. Or you're going to do magic around something that needs to be healed.
That's an internal process that you need to heal and resolve. Or you're gonna do magic on something that needs to be cleared. Which is more of an external thing around you. And everything came down to that, even like, "well, I wanna be more psychic." And I was like, "well, why? Why do you wanna be more psychic or what's stopping your psychic ability?
Do you need to clear something that's blocking your psychic ability?" "Hey more is clearing" or "I wanna be more creative." "Okay. Why do you wanna be more creative?" But that usually falls into like a healing or a clearing or maybe both in multi-
Amy: yeah they can overlap.
Jacki: Yeah. And so, as I was writing this book, *laughs* I got- I got half of it done. And then I'm like, "oh my God! This is Maslow's hierarchy of needs!"
Amy: *Laughs*
Melissa: That's awesome. So it was, it was like an epiphany. It became clear to you in the process?
Jacki: Yep. And then I had to start all over again!
Melissa: That's a good lesson to share, is that sometimes you're almost done and you have to start over again.
Jacki: Yep. I was- the- the main part of the book was, um, was really solid and I had started a lot of the indexes. Then I went, "I know what I wanna do! I know what this is. Oh my gosh!" And so then I talked to a couple of people I know who are therapists, masters in social work, and I said, "all right, this is my thought process. This is what I wrote. Challenge me." And- and they're like, "wow. I can't!" This is good because the- the- and they're also magical practitioners too. And they're very excited to read this. Because when you're- to me, if you need to do a spell about something, that means that there's a deficiency. You need to heal something.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: It's okay! Heal it. Um, there's nothing wrong with you as a human being. Just understand that there's a deficiency. If you find that deficiency or the multitudes of deficiency or the thread that's going through, and you work on healing that, then your spell or your intention work becomes that much stronger.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: You can maybe do it once, instead of having to keep repeating that. And then as I was building that, I went now I need to change all the indexes and show people how they can take any one of these things and- and use it in those different perspectives. You can use, you know, the color blue. "How can you use the color blue for any one of these things?" or
"how could you use peppermint for any one of these things?" And "how- how do you- how can you shift your perspective on these things to find-" I'm also a kitchen witch. I like- I use what's around, um, I think that's some of the most powerful things you can do is, you collect things for a reason. You know, I need to have a need, immediate need, and I'm gonna look and see what's in my kitchen. I'm gonna see what I've got handy first, before I go to the store. And 90% of the time I've got everything I need. Yes. I love that.
Amy: We knew about repurposing before it was cool.
Jacki: Yeah.
Amy: Just find it. And- and I- I- I really appreciate how you connected the deficiency to those five concepts. And also one of the takeaways that I've had from what you've just been sharing and in your book is people giving themselves permission to heal and to be okay with knowing that healing absolutely has to be part of the process.
And in order to heal one thing- if you wanna get to another step, you have to heal first that deficiency, or at least recognize it or validate it, or however it looks, but in your book, there's permission as well. That it's okay to do this. In fact, it's- it's critical to do it if you wanna go to the next level.
Jacki: Exactly. And the fact that, when I learned about Maslow's hierarchy of needs a while ago, when I was younger, it was because I was trying to really do a lot of self- actualization stuff and expand my psychic abilities. And I was frustrated because it wasn't going where I wanted to go. And my mentor at the time said to me, "girl, how are you gonna get more psychic when you can't feed yourself?"
Amy: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm
Jacki: You- you're struggling financially. So of course you're not gonna be able to expand this. And then that's who explained Maslow's hierarchy of needs to me. I didn't read much about it at that time. I just thought that was brilliant.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: And it stayed with me. And then as I got older and started, self-study on different psychological concepts, I revisited that. And I went, "that is so true," that if any of these things are a struggle, then it's hard to move on to the next one.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: And to honor that.
Amy: Absolutely. And, and the thing that we know is that there can be shame attached to it or guilt, or, you know, if you grow up in an environment where that's not acceptable or it's not okay to honor our deficiencies or to honor things that we're not maybe comfortable with or familiar with, it can be jolting for a lot of people as well.
Jacki: Mm-hmm. Which then I wanted to make sure everyone understood that this whole process can be joyful. Just, it's supposed to be fun and joyful. Sometimes it's a struggle. Sometimes you come at it, trauma or even rage, but you can turn it into a joyful fun process.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: Magic is fun.
Melissa: I know I had read that you wanted to normalize magic, and to me, magic is sort of like cousins or right next door to joy.
When I think of magic, I think of something, you know, fun or delightful, you know, otherworldly, or special. And so for me, like, it doesn't necessarily need to be normalized, but when I hear the two of you talking about-
Jacki: I love that.
Melissa: You know, maybe shame or acceptance or permission, maybe for a lot of people that's, you know, magic and joy are a little bit scary or haven't been normalized for them.
Jacki: When I said I wanted to normalize the word "magic" and "witch," that is something that I started talking about 15 years ago, that I wanted to be part of normalizing that. And that wasn't normal, then.
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: When I would say, "I do magic, we make magical candles." And they go, "well, what happens? You pull a rabbit out of it?"
Amy: *Laughing*
Melissa: Right, right, right. I can see people saying that.
Jacki: And that was the- that was like the standard answer when I would- started claiming the title witch, it was like, "what? I don't see any warts on your nose. You turn green?"
Melissa: "Can you fly on a broomstick?"
Jacki: Well, yeah, that was the other one. Yeah.
Melissa: Yeah. I bet. I bet. I bet.
Jacki: That made me sad, that this is so important and- and so healing and so powerful, and it was so like tongue -in- cheek where people made fun of it. So I wanted to start normalizing this process. So I- I claim the word witch. It's on my business card. When I go and I do a presentation in the- I call it the- the "muggle world" of- for Harry Potter, but the- the non-magical world I put, "witch" in my presentation, and sometimes people don't wanna say that.
Are you sure you really want me to say, witches?" and- "Absolutely!" I freely talk about magic and I freely talk about magic even in- in the new-age industry, which is funny, because that's been around for so long. It's not new. But, in the new-age industry, even then- and this is like, kind of 15 years ago, this started, they did not like to bring in the word "witch," or even in the word "magic."
They liked "manifesting" and "intention," and all that other stuff.
Amy: Yeah.
Jacki: And there was, and yes, I'm a successful company and they welcomed me. They wanted me in the trade shows, but they didn't want other people with witchy stuff. I mean, other than publishers, sure. They would deny people with "witch" products.
And I did a presentation for them and I gathered different people around and I said, "it is time to stop this." And I did a presentation with another teacher, magical practitioner, who is a- a teacher. And we did a presentation, not only to the- the people who are attending the conference, but basically to the organizers of this whole conference. And that started a chain reaction. Just really pushing that, pushing the influencers to say, "I guess this is okay." And being part of that shift and even, um, the witch aesthetic right now, like that cottage core witch aesthetic, that's very popular right now, I love that this is okay. It's not scary, people aren't running away screaming.
Melissa: It's really gaining in popularity, and I mean, it certainly seems like you can be credited with some of that is- I have a 13 year old and a 17 year old. They're both on witch TikTok. You know, they- they both- it has been somewhat normalized for them. But when you describe those early reactions of like, "do you turn green? Do you have warts on your nose?"
That's no small accident, right? I mean, there's been hundreds of years of pushing this down and re- normalizing it or, stigmatizing it or infantalizing it, or witch burnings, just mocking that we have up until recently. When I was reading your book and when I was talking to Amy, before we talked to you this morning, it really hit me why such a tremendous effort to stigmatize witchcraft or magic?
Jacki: Mm-hmm.
Melissa: You have to ask. It must be pretty powerful if there's such a consolidated and structured effort to keep it down.
Jacki: Yeah. You can trace it back from the shift from a matriarchy to a patriarchy.
Melissa: Of course. Right? Of course.
Jacki: If you look at most of the women who were accused of witchcraft, whether it in Salem or in England, a lot of these women were midwives.
Uh, well- spoken women. Or property owners without husband. So there are women of power, even in the medical world. There is a whole group of doctors who couldn't get clients because they're all going to the midwives in the Herbalists because the doctors, I mean, think about blood- letting was- was the thing that they did for everything, but the midwives would use herbs and these different things to help people, but the doctors, so they weren't gaining clientele and they weren't gaining this.
So they started accusing the, um, herbalists and the midwives of witchcraft. So now guess who's not around anymore? And everyone's gotta go to the doctor.
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: I mean, there's a small pocket of that, I'm not saying that it's all like that all the time, but you can look back in history and depending on, of course, it's hard to find some of this stuff because it depends on who the victors is, who writes the history, the power of the feminine and the power of just that- the- if you look at the- the feminine path versus the masculine path, feminine path is a little more introspective.
It's very protective. It's very nurturing.
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: And the male path just it's natural. It's natural state. I'm not saying anyone has to be like this, and I'm not saying man and woman, I'm just saying the feminine and the masculine. And the masculine
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: Path is- is very warrior-like and it goes out there and it propagates.
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: The masculine path propagates out there in the world. And the feminine path is accepting of that propagation.
Melissa: Right. We're the receivers.
Jacki: Yeah. In that shift is when a lot of that came to be, and then honestly, Hollywood. Storytelling and those types of things, there has to be a villain and, uh, we choose a villain to make the story more interesting. And what's a wonderful villain to choose?
Melissa: Yeah.
Jacki: Not just Hollywood, but in that storytelling.
Melissa: You know, when I think of all the witches and the evil stepmothers in the Disney stories, they go back hundreds of years before Disney. You know, moral traditions to be afraid of the witch.
Amy: Yeah. That- what was going on with the brothers grim, that they had to have so many evil witches?
Melissa: What was going on with them?
Amy: Talk about mommy issues!
Jacki: *laughing*
Amy: Goodness gracious. And I love that you brought up the- the feminine, that energy, because I think that's one of the reasons why we've come together with the kindling project is because the feminine energy is so powerful. And I know for me, as I get older, I crave that so much more. Now keep in mind, I do have three young male adults as boys, and two male dogs. So there's a lot of male energy around me, but in terms of a connection on a deeper level, on an emotional level, feminine energy is just- it's priceless. At least for me, I'm not able to get that from my husband or from the other men, which there's really not other ones in my life, but you know, it's just a whole different ball of wax, no pun intended, you know?
*laughing*
Jacki: Yeah, "ba dum dum"
Amy: *laughing*
Jacki: There's a lot of value in the mixed company.
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: Working with men and women. And then there's a different value when you can get a group of women together in supporting each other. I'm loving how the world is changing to where women are no longer allowing the paradigm to be that we fight between ourselves.
Melissa: Mm-hmm right.
Jacki: Putting each other down or we're fighting between ourselves for that prize of a man or that prize of the purse or the thing that's on sale, that we are celebrating each other.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Melissa: This has come up in several of our conversations. And I don't know, we're only on the ninth or 10th podcast episode, but that idea, you know, that there's limited space for women or, you know, when a woman gets to the top, she closes the door behind her.
She throws the letter down behind her. I do think that maybe starting with our mothers, but you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, women who are products of these last few decades, really starting to throw that out and say, "wait a minute. There's room at every table for women. And if there's not, we're gonna have our own table. we're not going to that table. We're gonna make our own table and build our own stage." And I just love that. Sometimes when I sit at a table with women and I feel women who have kind of their energy aligned and they're open and they're sharing, the contrast of that table to when you sit at a table with women who have sort of untapped energy, or they're not connected to each other, or they are still holding onto those beliefs, I just wanna fix that. I wanna change that. Or I wanna make a new space where that doesn't happen for everybody, or at least doesn't happen for young girls.
Jacki: Have you ever sat at a table where two women who are empowered, sit at a table with a bunch of women who have untapped power, have you ever watched the cascade happen? The- how the conversation changes with the rest of the women, with the women who are empowered, start to empower each other, and then you watch everything happen. I've had the luxury of being in that place a couple of times and inviting other women to that table and watching things change for them.
Melissa: Right. It's like a little spark or a light that just kind of, all of a sudden it's okay.
Amy: To give themselves permission. Yeah. Like now you can really say what you really wanna say, you know?
Jacki: Yeah. It's beautiful. So when you're talking about like, what's my kindling project, and all of these things. So I- I have many different faces.
I keep myself interested in life by new projects and faces and things.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: But really it all becomes empowered belief. So it all becomes empowerment, wanting to Kindle using your word, that spark of understanding that we can create our own belief or path. If there's something- there's one thing I would love for people to take away from the book, is that the inspiration to decide for themselves what these things mean in their life? The next book on magic that you get that has spells in it, or the next book on magic that you read that you're inspired by, including mine, to take it apart. "Why did the author say that? Why am I agreeing with this? Why am I disagreeing with this? Why do I resonate with this collection of ingredients?"
Amy: Mm-hmm
Jacki: and that a while ago, with one of my business mentors, she asked us to define our contribution to the world. And I have like, "I got minus blah, blah, blah." And she goes, "no, no, that that's not your contribution to the world. That's your, vision's your vision statement, but what's your contribution to the world?" Which is deeper than your vision statement. It's- it's not just your Simon Sinek, why, it's your contribution to the world. And that's when I came to understand my contribution to the world, my kindling project to the world is empowered belief, because what we believe we manifest, we prove it. We wake up and we're mad at the world. We're gonna prove that by finding lots of things to be mad at. When we believe that we can't succeed, we're gonna find things to impede that success. So what we believe, we manifest. But if you can empower your beliefs in a way that send you on a- a journey that's healthy, that is in alignment with a bigger goal, that's magic!
Melissa: That is magic!
Jacki: Right there.
Melissa: That is magic. When Amy and I sort of set out with this concept of the kindling project, we were gonna help or provide space or provide kindling for other women's kindling projects, we would look at each other and say, "the kindling project is our kindling project." Because you know, Amy already has a successful therapy practice and I already have a successful design agency.
And so the kindling project was gonna be our other kindling project. But a funny thing has happened to me, since I've been working on the kindling project, which has really just only been this year. It's not even a whole year. I'm painting more, I'm creating more.
Jacki: I love it.
Melissa: All of a sudden I'm finding. Wait a minute. I also had untapped potential or untapped creativity, you know, and by setting this intention that I was gonna create space for other people's, it's just so ironic. I was gonna create space for other people's kindling project, like low and behold. I'm like wandering into my art studio in the basement at one in the morning when I can't sleep.
And I'm like, "why am I not painting anymore? Why am I not making for me? Why am I spending all day making for others?" It's almost like a runaway train. If you start empowering your beliefs, they're gonna grow. They're gonna grow in your own life, even in ways that you might not have predicted
Amy: mm-hmm
Jacki: When you work your passion, writing this book, uh, The Big Book of Candle Magic and writing the things about the five branches of magic and understanding the deficiencies, and whatever you're doing in your passion, in your kindling project, it ends up healing a part of you and it feeds your soul, and a soul that's well-fed is able to heal. You need nourishment to heal your body. Like, you know, when you're super dehydrated, if you have the flu, you can't get better until you- you get some food and nourishment in you, the same thing goes with your spirit.
You have to feed your soul. So this was feeding my soul. So my outcome from this is I was able to go, "oh, what are the negative beliefs I've empowered?"
Melissa: Oh!
Jacki: It's an interesting shift for me that I went, "oh.... I have been unhealthy in these things in body and mind and spirit. And it's time for me to let go of these things or heal these things, or spend time on these things or do the work sometimes letting go is doing the work."
It's not the song. You don't just open your hands and shrug your shoulders and say, I've let it go. It's work. Magic is work magic isn't just magic.
Amy: Mm-hmm
Jacki: There's work involved in it.
Amy: You've got that right. And that's in a clinical term, I would say those are "action steps". What Melissa was describing about the art.
It takes action to let go. We can't just shrug our shoulders and say, "here it is." We have to actually be intentional with it. We have to take steps in order to let things go and we have to want to let them go. That's something we discussed this week is about letting go. And so it is magical what you describe Melissa, about, "wait a minute."
Jacki: Yeah.
Amy: "I'm now in my art studio!" That is magic. That is the beauty in, I think in being authentic and being real. And there's so many nuances that we. could-
Jacki: Yeah.
Melissa: The belief that we were empowering, I think that I was setting the intention for others and it just sort of snuck up behind me.
Amy: Right. Tapped you on your shoulder and said, "no, sister, this is for you first."
Melissa: Yeah.
Jacki: Yeah.
Melissa: And I wanted to say one other thing, and- that I keep thinking about candle magic this morning is, the ritual of it, breaks it down in a very, very simple, easy way.
Jacki: Mm-hmm.
Melissa: Lighting a candle and even sitting with a candle. Although I know, for a lot of us sitting still isn't simple or easy, it's very doable. It doesn't require, you know, raising capital funds or moving mountains. It's like a powerful, magical step that I think most people have access to a match. You know, something- that's one of the things I really, really liked about it is this is a powerful ritual, probably tens of thousands of years old, and we all have access to it.
Jacki: You can get a bag of 50 Tea lights for like five bucks at ACE hardware, I think, I was at ACE hardware and I'm like, "oh, the candle business, I can get Tea lights for $5." right. But just think about what you can do with a tea light.
Melissa: Oh yeah.
Just a couple of hours. So it's a nice little timer. It's just a couple of hours. You could pop that T light out of its tin and put a couple of drops of scented oil. Or if you don't have scented oil, maybe you have some vanilla in your house. Put like a drop of- of vanilla in the bottom of that. Vanilla is very uplifting. It's cleansing. It is- there's so many great things about vanilla, it's in my book, you should read about it. Just put that scent in there, or maybe put nothing in that tealight but you can light that.
It's very inexpensive and accessible. Shoot, I've been at resale shops at, uh, the Goodwill and there's tea lights sitting there, pennies a piece. You light that, and just sitting with that, it makes your brain slow down. It makes it helps the chatter where you can just start to hear your own inner voice. And when you can hear your own inner voice, then you can start to hear the divine connection.
And when you slow your energy down, it's a way of grounding. And when you get grounded and the- and you take that action step, the possibilities that show up are enumerable.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: The problems that you can solve just by clearing the chatter is crazy.
Amy: Yes.
Jacki: And then you can hear your own truth. That's magic too.
Yes. Beautiful.
Melissa: I haven't read the whole book, so I don't know if you covered this, but another ritual that I've done before that is a really powerful one with candles, is when you write down things that you're letting go, and then you burn that paper.
Jacki: Mm-hmm .
Melissa: And you just watch, you know, you throw it into a fire and it's just a final letting go. That's, you know, in a symbolic way.
Jacki: The other day I was given a stack of fake hundred dollars bills, but they were so realistic and I was at a bonfire with some friends everyone's having this, like they're- they're like almost mesmerized by these fake hundred dollars bills that look real. There's that reaction like, who doesn't love a hundred dollars bill, right?
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Jacki: We're all excited about these a hundred dollars bills. And somebody says, "can we just like, throw these in the fire and make wishes?" And they go, "even better! Grab those Sharpies, write what you want!" And then it turned into, "what if I wanna let something go?" I said, ""t,at's cool too, because you are in a middle of energy pumps because this is creating this reaction.
Like, "I'm rich! That means I can do anything I want!'
Melissa: Right. You know, being able to burn money, it has to help with your attachment to money, right? Your fears about money and some of the weird attachments we have to it, even if it's fake money, I would think that that has to do a little something to your psyche when you throw a hundred dollar bill into the fire.
Jacki: Simple, magical moments that you come across. I gotta be honest. There are times when I'm just so busy that I don't light a candle. I don't take that moment. I don't do any of my work. And I'm like, "oh yeah, I gotta do the thing. I gotta do the thing. I gotta do the thing." And I just get home and I'm tired and I don't.
And it's been a couple of weeks of that. And I was very upset with myself. I heard someone say I had to give myself some grace because blah, blah, blah. And that has been resonating in my head of like, I- I have to give myself some grace for not being able to be super magical or take action steps or something, because my life is filled with other action stuff. This interesting, magical journey over these past couple days going, "I'm gonna give myself some grace!" And it felt amazing. I've- I've like, let go of these expectations of how perfect I need to be. It's- it's like this little magical moment I grabbed onto and which shifts my energy.
So to me, magic is when you can you purposefully shift your energy. Great healing.
Amy: Yeah. And you're giving yourself permission. That's been a theme this week, so I don't know, it must be an energetic vibrational theme. I've been telling a lot of clients about giving themselves grace this week. And in- in other words, it's give yourself permission to not be in that space where you need to be, but you're gonna get there.
And a lot of it is just knowing that, "I need to go there ASAP," because that's you filling up your cup as well. You know, we all need to do that in order to show up, we have to show up for ourselves first. And that's what you're doing, is giving yourself that grace and saying, "okay, fine. Haven't been there. I'm going, I'm on my way." Jackie, you have been so- such an incredible person to- to learn from, and I'm so excited to get through your whole book. And, um, you know, we- we just wanna say thank you so much for spending time with us this morning. It's been such an honor to get to know you. One thing that I just wanna really circle back with is your empowered beliefs.
One of the things that we always like to do when we end our podcast is ending with a message.
And-
Melissa: from Kindling for others! Like,
Amy: Mm-hmm
Melissa: What can you take away? And I feel like there's so much from this conversation, even just that women can have these conversations, that's empowering, right? That the three of us got together for an hour this morning. And just allowed ourselves to talk about magic and ritual.
Jacki: If there's one kindling that I'd like to leave, is that besides the empowered belief, is that you are the decider of your own magic. You can disagree with myself and with other teachers and authors and still be okay.
Melissa: Right.
Jacki: You can choose something different from what people are teaching, because it resonates differently with you.
And I really want to empower everyone to say- to think for themselves in all of this journey. You're the decider of your own magic. If you think that raspberries make an excellent protection magic, then raspberries make some excellent protection magic, and that is super empowered, then do it.
Melissa: Right. If you believe it, it comes true anyway.
Jacki: There is something that raspberries have for you that's triggering that in you to- to go for it.
Melissa: I love that. I hope everybody feels that today.
Jacki: I'm so honored to be a guest on the kindling project, that this is a beautiful, powerful thing that the two of you have created and are doing and are making sure that women all over are included, that people all over are included to find something in them that they can Kindle or support somebody else's kindling project. It's just powerful. And I'm just so honored to be a part of this journey with you.
Melissa: Oh, thank you so much! It's our brand new baby. And like you said, I mean, I believe that the women who are meant to hear it will hear it, and there might be a million trillion, other versions of the kindling project, you know, there's other podcasts and there's other authors and there's other thinkers, but it's like you said, everybody has the power to choose.
And then also everybody has the power to express themselves authentically, and that's gonna resonate with someone. And we're really seeing it just in a couple weeks, a couple months, you know, whether it's our online community or our podcast or some in-person and events that we've participated in. You know, if you show up and you tell your truth, it is gonna resonate with someone.
Jacki: Thank you, Melissa. Thank you, Amy, so much.
Amy: Thank you so much. We're gonna have all of the links to your website, to your book, everything, all things Jacki we're gonna have in the podcast. Happy birthday, a couple days early.
Melissa: Yeah!
Jacki: 54! Woohoo!
Melissa: Woohoo! We're all in our fifties girls. This is a- this is our time.
Amy: Have a beautiful afternoon.
Jacki: You too. Bye bye.
Melissa: Bye!